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Trouble brewing over Swiss referendum

The Swiss if I understand it right have a system whereby if petitions to the Gvt get enough signatures then a referendum is held - wish this were true in our country, where Tony invited us to have the Big Conversation and then said 'No' to everything we asked  :lol

This seems a particularly democratic sort of democracy to me, although if we truly give decisions and law-making into the hands of the people themselves (rather than the people's elected representatives) this would probably not be ideal as the People can't be trusted not to come up with the Wrong Decision  :rolleyes

Obviously what we need isn't really democracy at all but a really wise, kind, just, benign Dictator who will always make the right and best decisions...  now where would you get one of those?
Ah, where are Vetinari and Drumknott when you need them?  :D

Pity the Swiss didn't cover themselves by applying the same rules to architectural (and indeed all public) manifestations of all religions, rather than singling out just one.  :)
The SVP has made a big thing out of this, basically because they are the Swiss equivalent of the BNP and don't like foreigners who don't slot in easily.

The Muslims have always kept a low profile in Switzerland, and there are only 4 minarets in the whole country.   A mosque in Langenthal wanted to put up a short minaret, and the SVP decided to use it as an excuse to be racist and xenophobic about it.   In addition, the numbers of Muslims has rocketed in the last 20 years or so from something like 10,000 to 400,000 because of immigration from Bosnia and other SE Europe and Turkey.

Creature had the misfortune to go past a SVP social gathering once near Zurich, and they gave him the impression of being rather a nasty bunch.

Every so often the Swiss have a referendum about throwing out the foreigners, but in the past it has always been defeated because they want somebody to do the dirty jobs.   But 20% of the SUBLs in Switzerland are foreigners, mainly because it is very difficult for SUBLs from particular ethnic groups to obtain Swiss citizenship.   If you are North European, by contrast, it is quite easy.

Wergh.
This is a strange one. Mosques aren't banned, just the towers that are attached to them. My initial reaction was that I wouldn't want some Imman singing at the top of his voice from one of those towers at dawn in the first of the five times daily calls to prayer, but apparently they don't use them for that purpose very often nowadays anyway.
So that begs the question "Why do Muslims want them if they won't get used for their original purpose?"
Which leads to the answer "Because it will give them a higher profile, a stamp that says 'Here we are and we're staying.'"
This is a far cry from their previous status in Switzerland which was to keep their heads down and don't annoy anyone, and rightly or wrongly, people are afraid. Muslims are seen around the world to want a greater say in the day to day running of their country of choice which usually means some form of Islamic influence, i.e. sharia.
There is no country in the world where Islam is the dominant religion that this is not the case. You only have to look at Pakistan, and even in fiercely secular Turkey, Islamists constantly peck away at its secularism, trying to undermine it.
Of course, the same could be said of "Christian values", and Tony Blair, our previous PM, had some of them, taking us into a war of questionable legitimatacy in Iraq. In conjunction with George Bush, whose god told him it was right they are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, far more than Saddam at his most brutal could have conceived.
Religion sucks.  :mad
"Because it will give them a higher profile, a stamp that says 'Here we are and we're staying.'"


How high does a minaret have to be before it gives that signal?
They come in all shapes and sizes, some being quite modest and the tallest being over 200 meters high. I wonder what would happen if people wanted to build a church tower on their mosque. :D
But that doesn't answer my question, Eccs - how high does a minaret have to be before it gives a "higher profile, a stamp that says 'Here we are and we're staying."

I think a short minaret doesn't give off any sort of signal at all.
Apparently it is customary in Muslim nations for the height of new buildings to be held to be lower than that of the shortest minaret. One would assume therefore that Muslims in Switzerland would seek to have their minarets at least as tall as the surrounding buildings. If that were the case, then I can see some reasoning for objections. But the short answer is "I don't know." :)
Eccles, I think you've put your finger on it with it being symbolic. It's nothing to do with the look of the thing, but of the perceived intent.

For all we know these particular Muslims might just want a pretty tower, but their fellow Muslims around the world have made it mean more than that. If these people are suffering some frustration and inconvenience because of that then they might want to address the original cause of the fear and resentment.

I've had a vaguely related discussion recently about the Catholic church. Catholics saying something like "but you can't blame us for the organized child abuse in the church".

Of course I don't 'blame' them since they personally didn't do it or even condone it after the fact. However if you boast of belonging to a group that commits atrocities then you are going to be treated with some caution by your neighbors no matter how nice you are personally.

Also whatever their intent the 'good' catholics provided a respectable front for the rest for the others to operate behind.

I once suggested that the 'good' Christians should call themselves something else to disassociate themselves from the others since they claim that their faith is about god not the actual church.

This would apply equally to any Muslims who don't believe it's their destiny and duty to keep separate from the country they are in, to undermine it and eventually impose their own rule over it.

There must be millions that just want a quiet life, but they are using the same symbols as those who do not.
Here's a BBC article about the mosque and its minaret in 2007.   You will see that the mosque is in fact an old paint factory, and the minaret would have been 5 metres high.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6676271.stm    

"We are very disappointed," said Mr Karaademi. "We just wanted to do our mosque up a bit, with this small minaret and a tea room. We actually thought it might promote dialogue."

Mr Karaademi is also bitter at what he sees as unfair discrimination against his faith. "I even gave them a written undertaking that we would never make the call to prayer," he said. "They seem to think we are all criminals or terrorists - that's like saying all Italians are in the mafia."


I think in this instance the little minaret was saying 'we're actually small and harmless round here, and would you like to come in for some tea or coffee?'

Some Muslims have committed dreadful terrorist acts.   The London Underground bombings.   The airliners crashing into the World Trade Center towers.   Bombings of embassies in Kenya.   Just a few items.   And I'm no fan of their brand of misogyny and intolerance.

As have some non-Muslims too.   The massacre of 8,000 Muslim European men and boys at Srebenica in 1995 by non-Muslim white Europeans.   It isn't all one-sided.

I think we are in danger of scapegoating Moslems into becoming the Jews of 21st century Europe.

And that is my final say on this particular topic.
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